Stevenson, in his 1975 -Year of Doom? summed it up perfectly:
"No other religious group would demand so much from its members, in return for so little."
Bill.
Bungi Bill
JoinedPosts by Bungi Bill
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17
Time demands of the Jehovah's Witness religion compared with other religions?
by stapler99 ini've been wondering how other religions, such as other christian denominations, would compare to the jw's in their time demands.. .
i'll lay out the approximate hours per week below.
(i know some of the meeting lengths have changed in recent years, and the bookstudy has been abolished.
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98
The "WOW!!" moment...Theocratic Ministry School was a sham!
by Terry ini just remembered something from long ago..... i moved to california in 1974 after i had been in "the truth" for 11 years, having full-time pioneered and also having served time in federal prison over the so-called christian neutrality issue.. i felt completely confident that my bible education was the best on planet earth.
i had honed my skills by door to door preaching, discussion, arguments and attendance at the theocratic ministry school.. i began working as an artist in a huge company that manufactured all kinds of art, sculpture and wall hanging.
the head of the artists was a wonderful young man, skilled artist and devout christian who took me under his wing.
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Bungi Bill
Band on the Run's description of how an imagined WT heavyweight set out to gun down a Jesuit - but instead got chewed up and spat out himself - should hardly be surprizing:
- Certainly not when you consider what goes into the training of a Jesuit priest.
i.e.
1) Firstly, two years as a novice; which includes a study of Chruch and Jesuit history, the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola (prayer, meditation and mental exercises), and Ministries to the poor, sick and terminally ill.
2) A "First Studies" period of two to four years, in which the student acquires at least a Bachelors level Degree, with a solid grounding in Philosophy. Also, as the Jesuits are known for their Educational Ministries, the student will almost always earn a Masters or Doctorate level degree in some other area as well: - e.g. History, English, Chemistry, Law or Education.
3) A "Regency" period of two to three years, in which the student lives in a Jesuit Community, and serves in the Full time Ministry - usually teaching at a Secondary School. (If you think you know something, try explaining it to somebody else, then you find out how much you still don't know!).
4) Four years of Theological studies, during which he earns a Bachelor's Degree in Theology. Nearly always during this time, the student will also acquire a Masters Degree in a specialized area related to Theology.
5) Ordination, after which he will be given a Ministerial Assignment, or sent back to college for further studies in practically any academic field.
6) "Tertianship", several years after ordination. The Jesuit Priest repeats the fundamentals of Jesuit life that he learned while a novice.
7) Final vows.
This whole process can take up to 14 years, with heavy emphasis placed on academic learning and achievement, over a wide range of subjects.
By contrast ,somebody who has "graduated" from the Watchtower University, with a Diploma of Idiocy (acquired by reading Watchtower and Awake for 4 years) is not even in the hunt! (Whether a boozing partner of Rutherford, or not).
Watchtower Society propaganda, focusing as it usually does on the personal failings of individual Catholic priests, cannot disguise this reality.
Bill.
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66
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
by Quendi ini know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.
i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.
"the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.
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Bungi Bill
Further to the scholastic achievements of F.W. Franz, his two years of studies in the Greek language were spent almost entirely studying Modern Greek, not Koine Greek.
As to his proficiency with the Hebrew language, he left himself wide open to suspicion during the Walsh trial of 1954, in Scotland.
- For sure, he only said "he wouldn't - not couldn't" translate a bible verse into Hebrew / he was asked to translate English into Hebrew, not vice versa / the trial was about JWs being a religion, not about bible translations / the Crown Solicitor was just trying to be a bully / etc. etc. etc.
- However, the best that can be said from that incident is this; if Fred Franz was indeed capable of translating that English sentence into Hebrew, then he surely could have handled the matter much better than he did. (Incidentally, the claim that it is harder to translate English in to another language than the other way is a hollow one from my experience - during all the years that I used the Tok Pisin language of Papua New Guinea during my everyday work, I never found it harder to translate English into Tok Pisin than the other way around).
Scholars of the Biblical Languages have mainly given the New World Translation a bad review. The only scholar that I know who had favorable things to say about it was Alexander Thompson - at the time Advisor to The Queen on Biblical Languages. (All of us used to carry with us a photocopy of his testimonial of the NWT - to wave in the faces of anybody who questioned its accuracy!)
Bill.
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98
The "WOW!!" moment...Theocratic Ministry School was a sham!
by Terry ini just remembered something from long ago..... i moved to california in 1974 after i had been in "the truth" for 11 years, having full-time pioneered and also having served time in federal prison over the so-called christian neutrality issue.. i felt completely confident that my bible education was the best on planet earth.
i had honed my skills by door to door preaching, discussion, arguments and attendance at the theocratic ministry school.. i began working as an artist in a huge company that manufactured all kinds of art, sculpture and wall hanging.
the head of the artists was a wonderful young man, skilled artist and devout christian who took me under his wing.
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Bungi Bill
Terry,
I notice these days that all the JWs who call on me seem only too pleased to have an excuse to disengage from the enemy, and flee the field!
Towards the end of my time with the Witnesses, i.e. during the late 1980s / early 1990s, I noticed a growing reluctance to continue a conversations with anyone wishing to dispute a point.
Partly, I put this down to lack of practice.
Our congregation's territory took in part of a large low cost housing area:
- Jehovahs Witnesses, being nearly always in the lower socio-economic group (if not originally from it, certainly driven there by WTS policies), were attracted to such areas by necessity.
- Consequently, all the congregations in this vast area were spilling over with "publishers", and the territory was being covered every one to two weeks.
- People were utterly sick of us calling at their homes, the list of "Do Not Calls" almost equalled the number of homes where it was comparitavely safe to call at, most resident's vocabulary appeared to consist of little more than that "Fornication Under Consent of the King" word, and you were lucky even to reach their front door before being turned away.
- Getting into any sort of a conversation (let alone a deep one) was a notable exception.
- The only ones that showed any inclination to talk to us (if "talk to us" is an accurate description under those circumstances!) were ones from the more fundamantalist fringe groups of the Christian churches. These ones, though, were usually not too brilliant themselves - and only wanted to condemn us all to hellfire and damnation - not the sort of people you could get into a rational debate with (Though Rutherford and his sidekicks sound like they would have fitted quite well into that sort of a situation!).
Consequently, when the double exception was encountered - i.e. you met somebody who knew what they were talking about, AND was inclined to carry out a discussuion - the average JW was automatically placed in a position in which they had had no previous experience.
Incidentally, all agreed that the counsel / training / a#$ kicking - call it what you will - at the Kingdom Hall had very little relevance to reality, at least in our congregation's territory. Certainly, the WTS's claim that the "Territory is never worked to Death - only worked to Life" proved to be a very hollow one indeed!
This contrasted very much with the congregation I was with as a pioneer, some 20 years before that. That was in both an area and an era in which "Alerternate Lifestyles" were very much in vogue. The territory contained a large number of non-conformists - ranging from Hippies to Communists to the various Eastern Religions. Yet another non-conformist group such as JWs only attracted (usually) favorable attention, and you could get into some very interesting discussions with other non-conformists. Every time you went out in "service", you had opportunity to hone your (admittedly flawed) skills learned at the Kingdom Hall.
It would seem that these days, the JWs do not even have those opportunities anymore.
Bill.
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40
JWs who do a "disappearing act" because of damaging gossip and trouble in the hall
by LongHairGal ini know of a few jw friends who from time to time have to do a disappearing act from their hall.
one jw finds a "reason" to leave town to visit relatives and another jw would go to "visit" another hall in a nearby vicinity.
in all honesty, they are fleeing from the strife in the kingdom hall when they are in the spotlight.
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Bungi Bill
In the seventeen years since I broke with them, I have never seen any worse examples of people being shredded by gossip than what I saw amongst the JWs .
Also, as already noted, elder's wives are often as not at the forefront of destroying others with gossip:
- its victims are not always just other sisters, either.
Bill.
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67
You'll lose your life and that of your children if you don't come back
by truthseeker init was a beautiful, sunny day.
i was in the supermarket doing an early morning shop when i see an old friend of the family, a jw sister.. she asked me if i'd gone to the memorial and i told her no.
she said that the end is so close what with all the earthquakes and brother truthseeker, you need to come back to jehovah otherwise you will die and so will your children.
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Bungi Bill
A question was recently raised on another thread as to whether it is love or fear that motivates the JWs.
With remarks like this one so common place (they tried to use this same guilt trip on my parents, when we were children), what other answer can there be but FEAR!
Bill.
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Bungi Bill
There will always be somebody around that has to be different - no matter what.
Regarding those who described the Special Talk as "Awesome", I would hate to see their idea of "Bloody Awful"!
Bill.
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98
The "WOW!!" moment...Theocratic Ministry School was a sham!
by Terry ini just remembered something from long ago..... i moved to california in 1974 after i had been in "the truth" for 11 years, having full-time pioneered and also having served time in federal prison over the so-called christian neutrality issue.. i felt completely confident that my bible education was the best on planet earth.
i had honed my skills by door to door preaching, discussion, arguments and attendance at the theocratic ministry school.. i began working as an artist in a huge company that manufactured all kinds of art, sculpture and wall hanging.
the head of the artists was a wonderful young man, skilled artist and devout christian who took me under his wing.
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Bungi Bill
If all you knew of the Christian churches is what you learned from the WTS, then you would indeed have a totally skewed view of things:
- a bit like having looked through a builder's dumpy level at the reflection of an object off a distorted mirror; instead of looking straight at that same object!
It took a bit longer for the message to hit home for me, but finally hit home it did; i.e. that nearly everything we were told about the Christian churches was incorrect - particularly as regards bible scholarship. I can remember even being told that, "once you back your preacher into a corner over bible doctrine, he will probably say that The Bible is a lot of nonsense." It was even being touted by the JWs that the churches were claiming that "God was Dead."
The reality, however - as Terry discovered in one evening, and I found out over a longer period - was quite different.
Still, what can you expect from an outfit that has no scholarship, and nothing but disdain for academic learning?
Bill.
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39
Did you beleive you were A intellectual when you were a JW
by jam ini am embarrass to say when i was a jw and a elder i. thought i could sit down and speak on any subject with.
anyone intelligently.
i felt the schooling of the wt had.
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Bungi Bill
I knew quite a few elders like Jam describes:
- i.e. just because they had been appointed an elder in the congregation, they seemed to think that they automatically knew more about every conceivable subject than the rest of us did.
The younger they were, the more pronounced this feeling of superiority seemed to be (One I recall even affected a distinctive peacock strut after his appointment).
As for me, I never considered myself anything other than "unlettered and ordinary" - just like the apostles! I certainly never bought into the idea that reading the Watchtower and Awake magazines gave you the equivalent of a college education (unless it was for a Diploma of Idiocy).
Bill.
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23
Pennsylvania witnesses shot at
by Siddhashunyata inhttp://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?aid=/20110501/news90/105010338/-1/news.
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Bungi Bill
In the district where I lived when first contacted by the JWs, such incidents were not altogether unknown. Unfortunately, there are persons around who still own firearms, but are not in any fit mental or emotional state to be trusted with the things. Combine that with a serial nuisance such as the JWs, and the above can all too easily happen.
However, to argue with somebody who is threatening you with a weapon is one of the heights of stupidity. I have been held up at gunpoint (though not while in the field service). Not having any particular desire to be awarded a medal for getting myself shot, it was very much a case of saying "you win" to the gunman!
Bill.